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Author Topic: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?  (Read 3010 times)

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wp34

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2015, 02:16:14 pm »
     I cant believe you guys are trying to talk each other out of buying a table saw, It is the basis of any decent shop...

Oh I am not trying to talk anyone out of buying a table saw.  I am trying to talk people out of buying cheap, unsafe, table saws.  I think they are so bad and so unsafe that nobody should own one...period.  If you want a table saw (and yes I encourage you getting one, and learning how to use it safely) start with the rigid/bosh jobsite saws that have a riving knife for about $400ish.

+1 on the riving knife.  Having used saws both with and without I'd never go back to one without one.

EvilNuff

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2015, 05:09:05 pm »
I know I keep harping on the riving knife but really its for a reason.  Wood moves and you cannot prevent that.  When you cut it you expose new wood to air, with different moisture content.  The wood can (and will) warp by a non insignificant amount.  If the wood passes through the saw blade and moves on you, pinching the blade, you will get kickback. 

Kickback can kill you.

Yes I am trying to scare you, yes you should be scared.  I flat out refuse to use a cheap table saw.  Simply put even if you do everything perfectly safe, using their cheap splitters, etc.  You can still get hurt or killed, and the likelihood is not tiny.

Please don't just disregard what I am saying my friends.  Dump those $50-$100 crap saws.

dkersten

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2015, 06:12:34 pm »
Actually it's the grain of the wood combined with moisture that can cause it to warp while cutting.. often there are internal stresses in wood that you can't see unless you know what to look for and as soon as you rip the wood it will start to twist or bend, sometimes significantly.  I have had a 2x8 pinch together and stop my blade dead, only because I was holding firm and the catcher was also holding firm (and it is only a 2hp saw, a 5hp would have cause damage) because as soon as the cut was made the two pieces warped toward each other.  Once I finished the cut, both pieces had curved well over 18 inches over an 8 foot stretch.. If given time to dry up that way it would have twisted and cupped as the internal grain tried to straighten itself out...  Start with dry wood and this is very rare, but there are other dangers, so it is always a good idea to have the option for safety equipment.  There are also a TON of things you can do with a tablesaw that require you to remove that safety equipment, so make sure whatever you buy can be easily removed.

However, I would advise against a portable jobsite saw unless you are planning to tote it around a lot.  The reason is a regular contractor saw will have the bolt holes to allow for a fence upgrade where most jobsite saws will not.  This means you can buy a $300-400 saw and then later when you can afford it, upgrade with a biesemeyer or similar T-square fence and turn it into something closer to a $1500-3000 cabinet saw for a fraction of the price.  (I think Delta bought Biesemeyer, but they still sell their fences separately).  A table saw is only as good as its fence.  Simple as that.  Any saw with a good fence, a good blade, and set up properly (adjusted to be parallel and square) will give you good results.

jennifer

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #43 on: December 15, 2015, 02:01:26 am »
   You guys are not wrong, and obviously have cut a lot of wood, But those cheap saws are not as bad as one might be led to believe, (at 100.00) First, it comes with a stand, not a big deal some might say, but at that that price quite a value, makes the thing usable anyway. The twisty wood, yes this is a thing, but the fences on these budget saws suck  for that reason I assume, binding wood will just move the fence, (obviously requiring readjustment) Accuracy not that bad for ripping and general construction, pretty much as good as the operator, Like anything if you take care of them they will last a good long time, NOT saying a better machine is not better, (especially for cabinet work) but for someone looking for entry level I would recommend checking one out.... Oh and don't stand in front or behind ANY table saw, as kickback can injure,maim or kill (again true) and being out of the way reduces chances.

dkersten

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #44 on: December 15, 2015, 10:58:33 am »
I once accidentally dropped a 3'x3' piece of 3/4" MDF on the blade... of a 5hp Powermatic with a commercial T-square fence that doesn't budge even an eighth inch.  The 10" blade cut an ARC in the wood and as it ejected, it hit me just below the belt - about 3 inches lower and it would have been bad for me.  It physically pushed me back several feet and felt like a mule kicking me (I am over 200lbs, the wood is a couple pounds, so it takes a LOT of kinetic energy for something that light to move ME... think of hitting a 200lb sack of sand with a baseball bat.  Take your best swing and it might move a half inch.  This pushed me back several feet).  I had a baseball sized lump under the skin for several weeks after that. 

The first thing I did when I recovered from the kick back was count my fingers. 

The sound alone is enough to give someone nightmares. 

Respect the tools and always stay out of the way...

EvilNuff

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2015, 11:17:45 am »
   You guys are not wrong, and obviously have cut a lot of wood, But those cheap saws are not as bad as one might be led to believe, (at 100.00) First, it comes with a stand, not a big deal some might say, but at that that price quite a value, makes the thing usable anyway. The twisty wood, yes this is a thing, but the fences on these budget saws suck  for that reason I assume, binding wood will just move the fence, (obviously requiring readjustment) Accuracy not that bad for ripping and general construction, pretty much as good as the operator, Like anything if you take care of them they will last a good long time, NOT saying a better machine is not better, (especially for cabinet work) but for someone looking for entry level I would recommend checking one out.... Oh and don't stand in front or behind ANY table saw, as kickback can injure,maim or kill (again true) and being out of the way reduces chances.

Oh my gosh NO!  The binding wood won't just move the fence.  It can cause kickback which can KILL YOU.  No joke.  The wood can be thrown back towards you at very high velocity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Those cheap saws are far worse than you believe.  There are no real safety features on them.  The arbors can and will wobble, the fences are not sturdy.  Heck I have seen those cheapy ones where the blade was not parallel to the fence!

There is NO price that would convince me to use one.  You literally could not pay me to use one.  I cannot emphasize this enough...do not buy or use those.  The Rigid $400 jobsite saw here:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-15-Amp-10-in-Heavy-Duty-Portable-Table-Saw-with-Stand-R4513/100090444
Is the cheapest I would consider safe to use.  It also comes with a stand (and a better one). 

Actually it's the grain of the wood combined with moisture that can cause it to warp while cutting.. ...

I was simplifying it.  I was more focused on convincing people that those cheap crappy saws should never, under any circumstances, be used.  :D

jennifer

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2015, 09:23:12 am »
   RE, Evil/N :   Binding wood is caused by wood binding between the blade and the fence, So yes, if the fence moves, Well just do the math, kickback is a relatively rare occurrence, and for the most part can be attributed to operator negligence... If Jennifer could with good conscious discredit a budget machine I would, But will stand behind the fact they are not any more or less dangerous than say that Rigid, are quite capable of decent cuts, and offer excellent value as a entry level workhorse.   

EvilNuff

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #47 on: December 16, 2015, 10:09:06 am »
   RE, Evil/N :   Binding wood is caused by wood binding between the blade and the fence, So yes, if the fence moves, Well just do the math, kickback is a relatively rare occurrence, and for the most part can be attributed to operator negligence... If Jennifer could with good conscious discredit a budget machine I would, But will stand behind the fact they are not any more or less dangerous than say that Rigid, are quite capable of decent cuts, and offer excellent value as a entry level workhorse.

This is an incorrect series of statements.  Kickback is caused by more than just binding.  Kickback is a *common* occurrence, saying or implying otherwise is actively dangerous to others.  Claiming that it is caused mostly by operator negligence is also blatantly false, misleading and dangerous.  Kickback can and will happen even when the operator does everything correctly and safely.

Jennifer, I urge you to reconsider what you are saying and doing.  Your mis-understanding of table saws and the dangers they can present is truly frightening.  I am sorry to be so blunt but you are actively encouraging people to do unsafe things.  This is literally the same as telling kids its ok to go play in traffic because other drivers should pay attention and not hit you.

For anyone else reading, please do yourself a favor...skip over any tool advice from her...she is flat out wrong.  I am sorry to be so confrontational but you are seriously endangering people with your advice.


jennifer

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #48 on: December 16, 2015, 09:55:51 pm »
    I am NOT some safety scofflaw, polar opposite in fact and those who know me can attest to that , But sit down Mr Doom and Gloom, pull your chair up really close, because I am only going to say this once....
 Firstly,
   #1, This is a thread on fixing mistakes (or not making them) not table saw etiquette  ... And to the Op Jennifer apologizes. :-\
   #2, Table saws are dangerous machines, But inherently don't kickback boards as a "common" occurrence or with regularity... And with proper training the risk of that can be minimized. 
   #3, Not everyone can afford a Rigid, Look around here man, most of these guys are using saw boards and cheap routers, Is this safer? Where is your confrontational air with that? 
   #4, Your review is completely biased "The fence is not parallel  with the blade" What are you even talking about? Straiten it up Duh....And bent arbors? this would cause violent vibration. I can not find one case point on this, believe it or not these machines are built as NOT to be a liability to the vendor.
    AND FINALLY.... Since you seem to be all shop teacher and such, (Id love to hear your causes of kickback lecture) Lets get out the dial gauges and mics and do a comprehensive overview of cost/vs/safety in another thread.
   

mgb

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2015, 11:24:03 pm »
And another thread veers far off from its original intention in order
that the nerds may banter on expounding their vast knowledge.

dkersten

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2015, 11:35:02 am »
And another thread veers far off from its original intention in order
that the nerds may banter on expounding their vast knowledge.
Well, I suppose when you come to a nerd website you end up having to deal with the personalities of nerds.


FYI, I HAVE had more kickbacks from cheap saws than good ones, but it's usually because the saw is underpowered, the blade is cheap, the fence is cheap and not parallel to the blade, and sometimes even the blade is not square to the table.  That being said, *most* table saws can be adjusted and tweaked and tuned to work better.  In the case of underpowered, a firm grip on the material will prevent most kickbacks (most cheap saws will stop if the blade binds, unless you aren't holding the material firmly).  Add a better blade and use the fence right and you will minimize the risks.  ANYONE who uses a tool improperly can have an accident. 

My argument against cheap tools is more one of quality over time.  Yes, arbor bearings can wear out, and a cheap arbor can warp and bend and end up with a worthless tool.  A cheap carriage is not only a pain in the arse but will wear out in a very short time.  Cheap fences do not stay in place well even if used right and in the event of a kickback can make the problem worse.  There are a lot of factors that will lead to a cheap tool failing and costing you time and money in the long run.

And getting back to the topic at hand, a cheap tool will usually result in more mistakes as well.  Blades drifting, carriages dropping, poor cut quality, improperly set up fences (or fences that slip), etc. are just a few of the issues you can have with cheap tools.  Good tools will provide a more solid foundation in which to hone your skills.  They also allow you to spend your time learning better methods to prevent mistakes as well as allow you more time to learn how to fix mistakes because you won't be wasting your time fighting the cheap tools.

lordjackenstein

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2015, 04:53:03 pm »
Practice. Also buy a 4 oz tub of wood filler.  It is a life saver.

yotsuya

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2015, 05:18:55 pm »
And another thread veers far off from its original intention in order
that the nerds may banter on expounding their vast knowledge.

WELCOME TO THE INTERNET, BRUH!!!!!!

Jamesbeat

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2015, 12:36:18 pm »
It's a philosophical matter as far as I'm concerned.
I don't make mistakes, I make 'features' :)

jennifer

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #54 on: December 31, 2015, 05:40:49 pm »
And another thread veers far off from its original intention in order
that the nerds may banter on expounding their vast knowledge.
Well, I suppose when you come to a nerd website you end up having to deal with the personalities of nerds.


FYI, I HAVE had more kickbacks from cheap saws than good ones, but it's usually because the saw is underpowered, the blade is cheap, the fence is cheap and not parallel to the blade, and sometimes even the blade is not square to the table.  That being said, *most* table saws can be adjusted and tweaked and tuned to work better.  In the case of underpowered, a firm grip on the material will prevent most kickbacks (most cheap saws will stop if the blade binds, unless you aren't holding the material firmly).  Add a better blade and use the fence right and you will minimize the risks.  ANYONE who uses a tool improperly can have an accident. 

My argument against cheap tools is more one of quality over time.  Yes, arbor bearings can wear out, and a cheap arbor can warp and bend and end up with a worthless tool.  A cheap carriage is not only a pain in the arse but will wear out in a very short time.  Cheap fences do not stay in place well even if used right and in the event of a kickback can make the problem worse.  There are a lot of factors that will lead to a cheap tool failing and costing you time and money in the long run.

And getting back to the topic at hand, a cheap tool will usually result in more mistakes as well.  Blades drifting, carriages dropping, poor cut quality, improperly set up fences (or fences that slip), etc. are just a few of the issues you can have with cheap tools.  Good tools will provide a more solid foundation in which to hone your skills.  They also allow you to spend your time learning better methods to prevent mistakes as well as allow you more time to learn how to fix mistakes because you won't be wasting your time fighting the cheap tools.
   I am not saying Buy cheap or go home, Quite the opposite in fact if one can afford it....However I do play with machines regardless of cost just because I like to compare, Cheap DOES NOT CAUSE KICKBACK. In fact I cant remember the last time Jenn even experienced it (although always expecting it as per safety), All machines wear out with use, Bearings seize bla bla, even on quality, but usually those issues are caught during regular maintenance interludes..... Your experience with excessive and regular kickback worries me, that's just not normal (and not adequately justified in your post)  you should get to the bottom of that before you get hurt.

dkersten

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #55 on: January 01, 2016, 01:15:13 pm »
FYI, I HAVE had more kickbacks from cheap saws than good ones, but it's usually because the saw is underpowered, the blade is cheap, the fence is cheap and not parallel to the blade, and sometimes even the blade is not square to the table.  That being said, *most* table saws can be adjusted and tweaked and tuned to work better.  In the case of underpowered, a firm grip on the material will prevent most kickbacks (most cheap saws will stop if the blade binds, unless you aren't holding the material firmly).  Add a better blade and use the fence right and you will minimize the risks.  ANYONE who uses a tool improperly can have an accident. 

My argument against cheap tools is more one of quality over time.  Yes, arbor bearings can wear out, and a cheap arbor can warp and bend and end up with a worthless tool.  A cheap carriage is not only a pain in the arse but will wear out in a very short time.  Cheap fences do not stay in place well even if used right and in the event of a kickback can make the problem worse.  There are a lot of factors that will lead to a cheap tool failing and costing you time and money in the long run.

And getting back to the topic at hand, a cheap tool will usually result in more mistakes as well.  Blades drifting, carriages dropping, poor cut quality, improperly set up fences (or fences that slip), etc. are just a few of the issues you can have with cheap tools.  Good tools will provide a more solid foundation in which to hone your skills.  They also allow you to spend your time learning better methods to prevent mistakes as well as allow you more time to learn how to fix mistakes because you won't be wasting your time fighting the cheap tools.
   I am not saying Buy cheap or go home, Quite the opposite in fact if one can afford it....However I do play with machines regardless of cost just because I like to compare, Cheap DOES NOT CAUSE KICKBACK. In fact I cant remember the last time Jenn even experienced it (although always expecting it as per safety), All machines wear out with use, Bearings seize bla bla, even on quality, but usually those issues are caught during regular maintenance interludes..... Your experience with excessive and regular kickback worries me, that's just not normal (and not adequately justified in your post)  you should get to the bottom of that before you get hurt.
Not sure where you got that I have had a lot of kickbacks...  I have experienced about 5 in my life from a tablesaw, and 3 from routers.. two of those cases I wasn't being careful, the others were just accidents from not expecting the wood to do what it did.  Between the two tools I have over 1000 hours (of actual power on making sawdust), so my few kickbacks (mostly controlled and didn't put me at risk) are far from excessive...

This past week I pulled out my table saw, which hasn't been turned on since my last cab (more than a year ago).  It had things stacked on it, dust and grime and dirt all over it, and had been shoved up against the wall and banged around for over a year to make room.  Without any tuning, any maintenance, or even checking the fence, I made well over 100 cuts and every one of them was accurate to a 32nd of an inch, and not one kickback.  I literally pulled it out from under stuff, blew the dust off, plugged it in, and started cutting.  Just about any tool can be safe if you take all the precautions and work carefully, but a good tool means that even a decade later, even after sitting collecting dust (not sawdust) for over a year, the tool is safe to use without having to double check everything, like if the belt is warped and cracked from sitting, or if the fence if straight and parallel to the blade, or if the blade is sharp or true, or if the arbor has sagged or bent or worn out... All things that can cause accidents.  A good tool will mean you can get right to work without having to nurse the thing along or perform rehabilitation. 

jennifer

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #56 on: January 02, 2016, 12:05:27 am »
  **Jennifer laughs**... Ok I get it, good saw, But a saw dug out of a garbage pile should be at least looked over before use.

Token

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2016, 03:14:58 pm »
My 2c on table saws is don't get it if it doesn't have a riving knife.  You're looking at the Bosch or Rigid job site saws around $400-500 as I recall as the cheapest I would consider safe to use.

Every new table saw sold since 2009 has included a riving knife.

Not saying cheap table saws aren't cheap, but they've come a long way.

pbj

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2016, 04:15:36 pm »
What changed my life was reading a tip in this forum about mixing wood glue and sawdust.  That stuff dries very hard and smoothes over a lot of mistakes.

UCA 2016 Board Chairman.  #considerapedestal2016

Slippyblade

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #59 on: January 02, 2016, 05:03:00 pm »
What changed my life was reading a tip in this forum about mixing wood glue and sawdust.  That stuff dries very hard and smoothes over a lot of mistakes.

This.  I learned this little trick through the board as well.  One of the best bits of advice I've ever gotten.  Doing this guarantees a color match to your original wood since it IS the original wood.

bdn103

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #60 on: January 05, 2016, 11:57:32 pm »
Mistakes go away with practice, careful planning, no distractions, and being careful with measurements and tools. I have spent alot of time and money learning and upgrading my tools. I have found that while a minimum quality of tool is necessary for precision and safety....bigger tools (more powerful) allow you to make bigger mistakes faster (why am I upgrading my spindle from 2kw to 5kw after writing that...?)

My mistakes drive me nuts. No matter how much sanding, filler or paint, I always see the error...even when no one else can. As a result, I have given away a pile of cabinets for their cost in lumber....and the people who get them stare at me like I am crazy when I point out the problem(s) in the beautiful cabinets.

It gets easier the more cabinets you build....but if you are a perfectionist....you need to learn to let go of the mistakes. Your next cabinet will turn out better.

jbl77

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Re: Do you guys cover up mistakes or are you just that good?
« Reply #61 on: February 08, 2016, 02:35:28 am »
   You guys are not wrong, and obviously have cut a lot of wood, But those cheap saws are not as bad as one might be led to believe, (at 100.00) First, it comes with a stand, not a big deal some might say, but at that that price quite a value, makes the thing usable anyway. The twisty wood, yes this is a thing, but the fences on these budget saws suck  for that reason I assume, binding wood will just move the fence, (obviously requiring readjustment) Accuracy not that bad for ripping and general construction, pretty much as good as the operator, Like anything if you take care of them they will last a good long time, NOT saying a better machine is not better, (especially for cabinet work) but for someone looking for entry level I would recommend checking one out.... Oh and don't stand in front or behind ANY table saw, as kickback can injure,maim or kill (again true) and being out of the way reduces chances.

Oh my gosh NO!  The binding wood won't just move the fence.  It can cause kickback which can KILL YOU.  No joke.  The wood can be thrown back towards you at very high velocity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7sRrC2Jpp4

Those cheap saws are far worse than you believe.  There are no real safety features on them.  The arbors can and will wobble, the fences are not sturdy.  Heck I have seen those cheapy ones where the blade was not parallel to the fence!

There is NO price that would convince me to use one.  You literally could not pay me to use one.  I cannot emphasize this enough...do not buy or use those.  The Rigid $400 jobsite saw here:
http://www.homedepot.com/p/RIDGID-15-Amp-10-in-Heavy-Duty-Portable-Table-Saw-with-Stand-R4513/100090444
Is the cheapest I would consider safe to use.  It also comes with a stand (and a better one). 

Actually it's the grain of the wood combined with moisture that can cause it to warp while cutting.. ...

I was simplifying it.  I was more focused on convincing people that those cheap crappy saws should never, under any circumstances, be used.  :D

I agree.  Used my father in laws ancient saw once and got a kick back right into my belly.  I howled and swore and hopped up and done....and then I lifted my shirt and watched the bruise form.

  
 

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